Racial/Socio-economic Issues

[lisa persons]

http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/dayton/stories/2008/03/31/story4.html

According to the Dayton Biz Journal, ground breaking will take place in June.
From a related article, they described the new location to be in the area of Main and Jefferson.

I am not sure if this is actually dealing with the problem, or just relocating it.
I guess we will wait and see. 

[Bill Pote]

^ The idea is to remove all of the bus stops in the core area of the CBD (including all stops on Main) and use the new loading stations that are now being developed as a central hub.  By moving the bus stops to one location on their private property they can better manage crowd control as well as trespass those that are loitering or causing problems on the property.  This is something they cannot do currently since they are operating on public property.

This should drastically reduce the number of criminal and nuisance incidents that occur there and make for a better experience for the majority of RTA riders who are decent people just trying to get from one place to another.

I have gone through the RTA center on a number of occassions and while from the outside it sometimes appears like quite a chaotic scene, it really isn't too bad most of the time - just regular folks trying to get on the bus.  Unfortunately our region (like most) consider the bus to be something that only poor people use.  We'll see how much that changes when gas goes to $4.00 per gallon.

[daytonwriterchick]

Unfortunately our region (like most) consider the bus to be something that only poor people use.  We'll see how much that changes when gas goes to $4.00 per gallon.

This might be an interesting challenge question to posit to people that would both help diversify the population using the bus as well as help everyone save gas money. We could ask ourselves as well as others:

How often are car owners riding the bus? If never or very infrequently, why not? Is it a practicality issue, such as the bus literally not going anywhere you would need it to? If you sometimes do take the bus, what travel best facilitates bus usage?

If we had better grocery options closer to downtown, it might be that some of us would become more avid pedestrians or cyclists and wouldn't need to even take the bus. Still, one can't read while driving, and commuting might be less painful if it were cheaper!

[lisa persons]

part of the problem for me, is the infrequent stops.  if you look at the schedules posted at the stops, sometimes it is an hour or more before the next bus comes by.

RTA is definitely under-utilized; often times there is at most 2-3 people; the cost of fuel will surely have a definite impact on routes/frequency/cost; it will be interesting to see how they manage it

[Jeffery]

Are they moving the trolley busses from Main too, or is it just the diesels?

[Gary Leitzell]

To the people visiting from the NoGaryNo negative campaign site paid for by the Montgomery County Democratic Party, WELCOME! Please participate in the discussions here at DaytonMostMetro. As you can see, I have the ability to edit my posts. If I were ashamed of ANYTHING that I have said in the past, I could have erased it. Please read everything that I have written here and at www.thisoldcrackhouse.blogspot.com , www.walnuthills.blogspot.com and at www.GoGaryGo.net become part of the discussion and help become part of the solution to fix Dayton. Now, please read on so that you can see that my words have been misquoted or taken out of the context in which they were written.

Thank you,

Gary Leitzell


I'm a late comer to this forum but this topic needs to be discussed if we are to unite Dayton residents and march them into the 21st century. The real issue isn't race or class. It is perception and stereotyping which doesn't make it right, but let me explain. There are basically two types of people in this world. Those who are and act responsibly and those who are and act irresponsibly. Irresponsible behavior can run the gambit of morals, ethics, finances, drug taking, more willing to break the law etc., People can be fully responsible, somewhat responsible or even somewhat irresponsible and fully irresponsible so there is a broad range to consider. I don't think it matters if you are rich or poor, you are either responsible or you aren't. Education has a role. You are more likely to be moraly or ethically irresponsible if you lack a certain level of education but there are plenty of educated rich people who behave irresponsibly. I think that assorted statistics would indicate that African Americans are more tolerant of irresponsible behavior within their culture. It doesn't mean that they accept it, it just means that they tolerate it more or longer than other cultures. Certain irresponsible behavior is acceptable as a way of life and may not be considered to be irresponsible. This means that other races or cultures perceive that a group of young African American youth standing at a corner are more likely to have irresponsible members within their group then say a group of Asians, Middle Easterners or "white" people. They are identified (unfortunately) by the color of their skin and broadly stereotyped by this perception they they could be irresponsible people.
Most of the crime in Dayton is being committed and repeated by the same handful of irresponsible people regardless of color. The police have this same perception when they stop a young African-American male driving a Mercedes. They don't stop him "because" he IS black (and they hate black people) they stop him because he is identified by his skin color as being a member of a culture that has a higher tolerance for irresponsible behavior and there is a greater possibility that the car is not being driven with the owners permission. It is less likely they would stop an Asian or an Oriental youth and more likely if the person looked like a punk rocker, regardless of skin color. This is called racial profiling. It isn't necessarily right but it isn't racism. However some call it that. Until it is realized that this is the real issue by all cultures, the race card will continue to be played. It has been played on me several times in my life. Realize though that it is generally played by people who act irresponsibly to some degree. Now that I have brought this up, some people will call me a racist. Let me assure you, I am not racist. I am predjudice though. I have no tolerance for lazy people. Not all lazy people. If you are lazy, admit it and like your lifestyle and don't complain, you are fine in my books. You are responsibly lazy. If you are lazy, don't admit it to yourself, complain about why you should be entitled or privileged and think others should take care of you then I have a problem. You are irresponsibly lazy and could be called a moocher by someone who isn't inclined to be politically correct.  I have often said that I would rather live in a neighborhood of responsible African American people than a neighborhood of irresponsible white people. Most educated responsible folks would make this same comment.
If we want a greater Dayton, we all need to accept responsibility for our own actions and we need to attract more responsible people to live within our city limits. It seems that right now, the opposite is happening.

[Bill Pote]

Thanks for the thoughtful post, Gary - and welcome to the forum.

My opinion - the city is losing the "more responsible" folks to the burbs and other cities, which leaves less role models for those that aren't currently acting very responsible but could if they had the right influences in their lives.  We must make this city attractive to those who are able to live anywhere, otherwise this trend will continue.

[andysnow]

Human behavior manifests as a continuum, not a vacuum nor an absolute.  If one wishes to perceive the universe simply as one label/concept/property OR another (black v white, hot v cold, tall v short, responsible v irresponsible), then one is choosing to ignore the infinite range, the vast mosaic that represents the amazing diversity of life.  There are 6-7 billion individual people on the planet.  There are no types.

It is language that teaches us to divide and parse experience when life has infinite potentials and possibilities, many beyond the capability of our senses and our ability to communicate verbally.  Language is agreed-upon symbology and abstraction of reality.  Hot is hot when compared to cold; ice is warm when contrasted with frozen nitrogen. 

To discuss it yet another way, at what point does behavior suddenly make the label "irresponsible" appropriate? Is it one act or many?  A pattern or a single judgment?  Most importantly, who decides?  One person's "irresponsible" behavior may in fact be acceptable within their cultural/ethnic matrix.  And we want to be mindful of that.

I suggest that this viewpoint is not 21st century but rather more aligned with 19th century thinking.  If we don't embrace the differences, the diversity, the pastiche that is the wide range of activities and perspectives that all humans bring to the table of existence, then we are missing Einstein's train leaving the station at the speed of light. 

Relativity rules; and perspectives are simply that. Everyone has one (a perspective), and every one must be honored, at least to some degree. Yes, there are inappropriate and reprehensible behaviors; yet even ending the life of another human being is deemed appropriate in certain contests or contexts like war or executions.  And one may even disagree with that premise and assertion.  And don't we want to honor the heart of such disagreement as well?

Gary, thank you for sharing your ideas.  I wish to honor your thoughts while suggesting a broader, more inclusive, perspective. 

Catalyzing real positive change may only come with an open mind and an open heart.  Categorizing humans into marginalizing conceptual slots may be counterproductive to that ongoing, all-including goal of eliminating barriers to personal (and, thereby, economic) development. 

In a more mindful way, we can grow and enhance our community as both a mosaic and a matrix. 

[Murf]

Well said Andy!

[Bill Pote]

I think Gary might be talking about those "irresponsible" people that make life less enjoyable for others by stealing aluminum siding off of houses, exhibiting public intoxication, walking down the street with no shirt and underwear hanging out, letting their kids run around in the street with little or no supervision, etc.   There are varying degrees of irresponsibility ranging from criminal behavior to simply rude behavior that makes those around you feel uncomfortable.

It has absolutely nothing to do with race, but it does have to do with environment.  If a kid grows up surrounded by irresponsible people then chances are great that he/she will grow up to be irresponsible.  And as those who are responsible decide they'd rather move away to live near other responsible folks then the cycle of irresponsibility perpetuates.

Bringing it back to the original post topic, I think another issue that perpetuates the cycle is one of intolerance.  There is a difference between being intolerant of those acting irresponsibly and making life miserable for you and others, and being intolerant of those that are simply different than you (whether it be by skin color, income level, way of life, etc.).  People must do a better job of telling the difference, and that one should not be confused with the other.  But instead I believe that many in our current society find it easier to simply lump everybody that is different than themselves into the same group.  Rather than embrace diversity, many simply flee it.  And just like kids growing up around irresponsibility, kids that grow up around intolerance will likely perpetuate that cycle as well.

[andysnow]

Thank you Murf for the kind words.

And thanks Billy for keeping this discussion on its track.
 
Keep telling a child that he/she is irresponsible and, sooner or later, he/she will believe you and will then act accordingly. 

Intolerance is precisely the frame of mind and speech that I am concerned about as well. 
Making a judgment to separate people into types can be the first step to marginalizing them. 

From there, it's on to intolerance, prejudice and bigotry. 

(This can actually be a road map to irresponsible behavior, but we don't want to take that journey, do we?)

Whereas, engaging as a volunteer can enhance personal self-esteem as well as pride in community.

Perhaps Gary would like to add his own words.

[tgasper]

Andy - nicely said.  I hesitate to add a post knowing it won't be nearly as eloquent as yours. 

I believe people either operate from a position of love or fear.  We often fear the unknown and that includes people or behavior that is different from our own. 

For an interesting perspective, I highly recommend Dr Ruby Payne's books - particularly "A Framework for Understanding Poverty".  It helps to understand how the different socio-economic classes thinks about core things - time, food, behavior, etc.  It's written primarily for educators that have a growing number of school kids coming from poverty backgrounds, but it's very eye opening.

Since the basic fear is of the unknown, I believe when you have a greater knowledge of WHY someone acts the way they do, it leads to compassion and understanding.   

Most of us can say our parents' generation thought we were losers & failures.  And their parents probably thought the same of them.  Maybe we wore long hair or flowers in our hair - this generation wears sagging pants, do-rags and tattoos or piercings.

Bing Davis has a wonderful slide show called "Adornment" that he showed our group of catalysts.  When you stop and think about the clothes we wear, the style of our hair, the tats or piercings as adornment, as the way we personally express who and what we are, they become less threatening and more intriguing.

I'd like to see a forum or venue or some form of opportunity to sit and have a conversation with other people - where we can ask simple questions out of curiousity - such as why do you do that, why do you wear that, what does that tattoo mean to you - and not be labeled as racist, judgmental or critical - but simply curious. 

I think we've worried so much about being politically correct and worry so much about offending each other, that we no longer feel free to simply ask questions out of curiosity.  We fear they may be taken out of context or we might upset someone so we stick to silence...and miss out on the opportunity to learn something new about someone different.

[Gary Leitzell]

Since I have been asked to elaborate on this issue, I shall. Though I feel that I am being tested. Let me just state this. Andy, your words are well chosen in your dialogue and you are obviously well educated but unless common folk can understand what your message is, it will be lost. I also feel that you will never have the utopia that you seek as long as there are certain irresponsible people in this world.

In this life we do not not choose certain things. We do not choose the color of our skin. We do not choose who our parents are and we do not choose our health. We do have a choice to act responsibly. Even at an early age we have this choice. Once we understand if something is morally wrong, we have a choice to either do something bad or not to do something bad. Most people have an understanding of good and bad by age 5. My 5 year old daughter knows right from wrong. Most people know what good is so I won't emphasize on good because if everything were good, lets face it, this thread would not exist. If the issue of this thread is tolerance, then I shall discuss that. Let's discuss tolerance from my perspective since that is truely the only one that I know best.

If you choose to do drugs and you know that drugs are bad, then you have made an irresponsible decision which can have life altering consequences. It could cause you to go on to do other irresponsible things. If you wish to smoke pot or inject poison into your body that is your decision and if you are willing to do it in the confines of your own home behind closed doors then I don't really care. In fact, let's say I will tolerate it. Although what you are doing is irresponsible to yourself, you are acting responsibly with regards to others. If you choose to have your drug dealer drive up to your house and honk his horn at 1 AM and it wakes me up, I won't tolerate that and I shouldn't have to.
Another example that affects us all is section 8 housing. I have no problems with it and I have no problem with the tenants if they act responsibly towards others. There is a need in society for such things. I lose tolerance when the teenagers living in said houses walk down the middle of the street when there is a perfectly good sidewalk that is safer to walk on and they shout obscenities at me when I pull up behind them in my car and rev the engine or toot the horn in order to get them to move faster or step aside so I can pass them. Some of these people are beligerant and act the way an animal does to protect their territorial borders with shouts and bluff to scare off an intruder. This behavior is not tolerated by many good responsible people who chose to move away rather then work to make the reverse happen. One bad seed can eliminate 4 or 5 extremely good ones within a single residential block. I have seen it happen. I am educated and old enough to understand much about human nature and my level of tolerance is higher than most, but if my IQ were lower I may not be as respectful and my tolerance would be in jeopardy. I am fortunate in that I have the ability to move away if I want to. More importantly, I have the ability and willingness to change the things that dog us.

If people would act responsibly towards others, tolerance would be easier to achieve. I am not as politically correct as many. I think that political correctness has caused this topic to stagnate for the last 40 years. Nobody wants to deal with it because certain people don't want to hear the reality and nobody wants to be called irresponsible. The only way to resolve the problem is to deal with it head on for what it is. Race and class are not the issue. They are factors that contribute but they are not the driving force behind the true issue. How people choose to act towards others is the real problem. This affects tolerance. I'm not a religious person but I do believe that the moral decline of this country began when religion was yanked from the classroom. Morals need to be taught to young children and they need to have a fear of a greater power regardless of whether that power is called God, Ala, Isreal, Jahovah, Zeus, Mars, Set, Thor or Loki. When we all finally realize that the athiests, who make up less than 1% of the population have managed to dictate and control the other 99% through fear of law suits and retaliation then maybe we can go back to allowing others to teach morals to our children. Until then it is up to us to teach our own children morals. We can only do that if we had them taught to us.

Don't make me get philosophical on y' all!

On a lighter note. Is anyone interested in hooking up after Urban Nights next week?

[andysnow]

Gary,
Thank you for your kind words to me and for your gentle and thoughtful commentary. This is not a test; we are simply having a conversation.  And my hope would be that together we can further the discussion based upon your words here.  I do choose words carefully to try to be as clear as possible, yet I realize sometimes it's not easy to follow my thread.  I appreciate any help in making this more accessible.

Yes, I was fortunate to attend some fine schools and read the works of great minds across all cultures from West to East.  I am a student of language and thought and the interrelationships.  Yet I am a photographer and understand the immense power of images as they shape our understanding of the world in which we live. Words and images together are even more powerful than the sum of the parts. 

You have painted a image here with your example and it brings up the question:

If one can't choose one's parents and if those parents act irresponsibly, how do "responsible" morals become part and parcel of the child's life?

Yes, parents provide moral guidance, but if the parents are AWOL, how does the child to become anything but "irresponsible"?  Those kids walking down the middle of the street...are they irresponsible or are they lacking guidance in appropriate behavior?  Is this their choice?  Or their misfortune?  (And, perhaps, ours as well.) Is there a difference?  Yes, and I believe this speaks to tolerance as a concept.

Your daughter has benefited from your guidance and schooling.  You are a shining example for her.  Not all the kids in all neighborhoods are as fortunate. 

My point is that there's a bit of a contradiction here.  To say that "we do not choose who are our parents are" and then say "we do have a choice to act responsibly" doesn't compute if one hasn't been provided with the guidance nor the example.  They are linked together.  Follow?

So tolerance may be the realization that what we deem inappropriate behavior is not a choice, but a consequence of unfortunate circumstances over which the child has no control.  Billy refers to it as "environment" above.  We all know what goes on inside our own heads and what happened in our own experience, but we can't know all the details of the person walking down the street.  We don't have to like the behavior, and getting angry only continues the problem.  (I struggle with this every day.)

Tolerance is a big word and a big concept.  It's a daily lesson to be mindful of.  Every minute.  To Teresa's point, fear does promote intolerance.  Fear is the tool of oppressors and dividers.

So what do we do? Do we point the finger of blame at atheists.?  Do we make it the primary mission of our beleaguered schools to teach morality?  Or do we accept the responsibility that it IS the village that raises the child and we are that multifaceted, multicultural mosaic that IS the village?  Certainly, we all bring to the table a wide range of experiences, insights, and attitudes that may challenge our tolerance, but it is my belief that that interaction will ultimately make us better and clearly more responsible as humans as we join together in community to help one another in positive ways.  Why?  Because around the table, we're all simply human beings first and foremost. We're all in this together; we are far more alike than different.  Our oneness shines when we work together to be that village.

If you are able and willing to "change things that dog us", please jump in wherever you can; in your neighborhood, at your kids' school, at your Priority Board, with team sport initiatives, whatever.  You probably already do.   

Utopia?  Nice concept, but no reality, no fun, in my mind.  Jumping in and shaping positive change here today and tomorrow is much more real and much more exciting. 

So I thank you for your ongoing contributions in that effort.   And I trust you realize my comments here are solely meant to further the dialog about social issues.  All perspectives are a welcome opportunity to think, expand and engage in positive ways.

And I hope we do get to meet; unfortunately I have a photo gig away from Urban Nights.  I live downtown and I'm going to miss it on many levels.  It's a great event.  It promotes the sense of community we are trying to bring to the region.

[Foreverglow]

Wonderful thoughts, everyone. I think we're really starting hit at the core of the issue. Not race, not gender, not financial situation, not even education level—but attitude and responsibility level. Gary, thanks for the straightforward dialog. I agree, political correctness and the fear of being labeled negatively hinders meaningful discussion of this topic.

The real question is how to improve people's level of thoughtfulness when dealing, directly and indirectly, with others in the community. The largest improvement would certainly come from a stable family life but that's an even bigger issue. How can this be improved?